J. Cole and Mark Pitts: The Man Who Shaped Cole, Usher and Chris Brown's Careers

In the back room of Maroon, the buzzy, ornately decorated restaurant from acclaimed chef Kwame Onwuachi nestled in the back of the Sahara hotel on the Las Vegas strip, J. Cole is enjoying a rare night off. It’s Labor Day Weekend, which means Cole still has about a month left in the U.S. leg of his Fall-Off Tour in support of the long-awaited, acclaimed album he released earlier this year, before embarking on European dates throughout autumn. It’s relentless, but tonight, Cole is spending his break taking in another live show: Chris Brown and Usher’s blockbuster joint stadium tour, R&B (get it?). But before heading to Allegiant Stadium, shutting down the Zouk nightclub with a surprise performance later that evening, and then performing his own show the next night at T-Mobile Arena, Cole’s here at Maroon to break bread with the common denominator between all three artists: Mark Pitts.Behind every great artist, is a great manager steering them forward, helping execute their vision and blocking out any external interference to better protect their creative bubble. For Cole, going back to his pre-Roc Nation days, that's always been Mark Pitts, the music industry veteran whose pedigree dates all the way back to early Bad Boy days when he was a co-manager to The Notorious B.I.G.. From there, his journey led him to working with a nascent Usher Raymond and guiding him through culture-shifting albums like 8701 and Confessions, to signing a 15-year-old Chris Brown and later, taking a promising young Jermaine Cole to Jay-Z and Roc Nation, where he would become the upstart label’s first signed artist.Since then, Pitts has largely played the background as he continued to counsel those three superstars and others, but plotting his next venture has him ready to inch closer to the spotlight. In this instance, Cole is eager to return the favor, sitting down with GQ to shed light on the ways his mentor has shaped some of the most exciting moments in Black music culture for the last couple of decades. Cole, Pitts and GQ’s Frazier Tharpe sat down for a free-wheeling conversation on the ways Pitts shepherded Cole through the latter’s early days, from helping Cole navigate the industry all the way up to recent years when Cole went through a brief period of feeling uninspired and depleted.The following conversation is lightly edited and condensed from a video interview with GQ's Frazier Tharpe. Watch above or on YouTube.Cole, you have a quote that Mark once told you that you’ve said really stayed with you: “Play the game to change the game.” I want you to unpack the mindset behind that and how you guys have actually put that into action.J. Cole: For me, it was a time when I had a deal, I was signing to Jay[-Z]. Roc Nation was new at the time. I'm walking in pure, meaning, I have no understanding of the industry. And I'm not even really trying to. I'm just trying to figure it out on my own. So there were certain moves that I wasn't trying to do specifically with the producers. I came up producing my [Mark], I think, got the vision, but he also knew... In his mind, he could see the mountain that I was going to have to climb in terms of the industry and the politics. He’s like, I know Jay and them at Columbia are probably, like, "Let's make him some hit records.” [Mark] was, like, "Who are the producers that I can get him in where it's not going to feel egregious at first?”[Mark] knew I needed to grow, but he knew that throwing me in with whoever the top dogs at the time was might've been too quick, so his first move was, like, "Yo, let me put you with Salaam [Remi].” Salaam is like his own version of a Jedi. Before Salaam, it might even have been No I.D. lowkey. He put me in with straight Jedis that like challenged me in their own way, but they not the stereotypical industry hit-making—No cookie cutter. Those guys are more about the fundamentals, which I think you probably appreciated. And Mark knew that you would appreciate it.J. Cole: Yes.Mark: [Cole] graduated at the top of his class. He came into the game smart because he pays attention to everything.Cole: But, to your point about play the game to change the game, during one of these conversations—[Mark] I don't know if you remember this, when I was talking to Rich Kleiman, who now runs Boardroom but at the time was at Roc Nation, and one of his assignments was me. So I'm not peeping the politics. One day, he's asking me about what's going to be the single and what's going to be the hit record. And I'm over here—mind you, not realizing what Mark realized, what Jay realized, what Rich realized: Jay-Z and his partners are investing money in you.Rich is talking to me about singles, and I'm just, like, I know the music that I'm sitting on. In my mind I'm like, I honestly don't give a fuck about a hit record to tell you the truth. I didn't see my career going like that. [I thought] all you got to do is come in the game with the classic and after that, you can get to the hits. I said this to Rich Kleiman. Looking back, I'm, like, Why would you say that? What is Rich going to do? It's literally his job to leave that conversation, pick up the phone and tell Jay, "Do you know what Cole said?” What you think Jay’s going to do? Jay gonna hit his man who brought Cole to him. I wasn't there, but [Mark] I'm sure Jay probably hit you with, "Yo, you know what the fuck your man said? He don't want no hit records. What are we doing this for?" And then Mark [intervenes]... he knows my heart and he knows how I see myself.Mark: [laughs] “That's not what he means!”Cole: Exactly. He’s gotta smooth that over with Jay. Then he calls me and tells me that famous line: "Hey, bro, you got to play the game to change the game. You got to give some. It's a give and take."It was almost like I woke up, like, I want to win for them, too, you know what I mean, not just for myself… I want to prove them right. So it changed my gears a little bit, and it came from [Mark] giving me that gem. You'll get to the point where you can move as free as I'm moving now. I had to put a chain on and a watch on just to know that I don't need it.All right, can we talk about some of the fits in the past? Mark, there’s a specific one that you look back and laugh at now, right?Mark: I was trying to get him Hype Williams-ready, you know what I mean? I always think about that Source cover. That was one of the biggest lessons for me because I realized, that's not my man,It’s not him, and forcing him to not be him is not going to help anything.Mark: A thousand percent. Even with the way he used to wear his gold watch. We were, like, "Yo, take some links out."J. Cole: I had a watch, but it had too many links. I'm a country n-gga, bro. I never had no real-deal jewelry.J. Cole: it's funny because you bring up The Source cover—I never knew that you even felt responsible for that because, guess what? Anything that's happened in my career. when I look back: any outfit, any choice, any turn, I don't look at nothing like, Man, why the fuck they had me doing that? No, n-gga, it's me. When you know who you are, you don't allow yourself to do certain things.The only reason I would even be on that Source cover with the leather jacket collar flipped up and the leather gloves is because—I'm at that shoot, a year ago, I didn't have no record deal, now, I got a Source cover. We got a stylist, presenting the leathers, but, when you know who you are, if it don't resonate with you, I would be, like, "Nah, that ain't me.” But, at that time, because I wasn't all the way aware of where I was at, I'm like, "Yeah, fuck it. Okay, I guess, a leather coat is what we’ll do."Mark, using Cole as an example, what's the happy medium between letting an artist do what they want and follow their own impulses and being the guy that's been there, seen it, and probably knows what the right answer is?Mark: Especially in this day and age, labels don't make stars. Stars are already shining, we just move the clouds out the way. If we got to tell you how to be, then you're not a star. Miguel's a perfect example. He had his own way of doing things. One time he had eyeliner on and it was just so crazy to me. I wear my emotions on my sleeve, I can't hide it. I talk shit. When he broke it down to me, he made me feel wack for not having it on. Like... n-gga, I like this shit…the fuck am I explaining to you for?Now it's like, I see what you're trying to do, but now we got to balance it out, because OutKast couldn't have started with “Hey Ya.” [Andre 3000] had to build to it. So you got to show [artists] how to get to what [they’re trying to actually do].While we're still talking about fits, Cole, can you tell me about the “Mark Pitts Polo?”J. Cole: So when we got the call that you wanted to meet, bro, I ain't have no gear. I was literally wearing the same shit damn near every day, the same dusty little green jacket and my little jeans. So I'm like, damn, what am I going to wear? Ib[rahim Hamad, Cole’s manager] had this blue polo at the time, one of the trendy polos with the big horse. I'm like, "Shit… let me get that polo."So. wore that to the first Mark Pitts meeting, right? Boom. You might not remember this, but when I got the call for the Jay[-Z] meeting, that was some last minute shit. I was at work.. just regular degular, not fresh at all. So I'm like, "Shit… Ib, can I get that Mark Pitts polo?" [laughs I got the same fucking polo and wore that to the Jay meeting.Cole, in the past you’ve described people in your life as vessels for God talking to you. In what ways does Mark specifically fill that voice?J. Cole: Man, it was protection, guidance. Like the fullback for the running back… I'm going to get there before you, I'm going to clear things out. And then it's almost as if the fullback could turn around and be like, "Go right or hit this hole right here." He was helping me as much as he could to get out of my own way, and to allow the world to give me space to even find out who I was. On the artist development side, he let me do that. If I ended up feeling any pressures from the industry, which I did eventually, it would've been a hundred times worse had he not been my lead blocker. You know what I mean?Beyond that, he also was a great big brother example of how to move in this game. Look how long he's been doing this and the respect that he gets. It comes from the same thing you did with me where it's like, bro, he could have put a paper on the table that day when I met him and been like, "ByStorm, come sign to me." Instead, he said, "Okay, what's going to be the best for him?" And what I know from talking to other people who he's come in contact with and what his track record shows is like, he's moved like that at all points in his career with everybody. So what he's taught me is that you can keep your morality intact in this industry and in this business for as long as he has.Mark, how do you maintain that, especially with everything you've seen, everything that you've gone through? I'm sure there are moments that want to knock you off your pivot and at least take a step back, recede and be over the bullshit.Mark: The things I learned at the Sunday table. It's the foundation of my parents. But there's a lot of times when I felt like, God damn, do I need to be on some [mean mugs] like this? The moment that I actually felt that I was doing the right thing was when Nas and Jay got together. LA [Reid] said to me, “It happened because they both know your heart.” There were people trying to get it done before, and it was always, I guess, somebody who felt uncomfortable. So there was that moment when I actually appreciated that, it may take longer to get there, but it feels better.Cole: Now it seems regular, but when Jay and Nas reunited, Mark was the unsung hero behind it. It wasn't until [Mark] was the middle man that it [happened]. If I put myself in Jay's shoes or Nas' shoes at that time, if I'm Jay, it’s What if this n-gga Nas try to use it against me. Or Nas, What if Jay tried to use this shit against me? But if I got somebody with a good heart playing the middle telling me “Nah, trust me bro. He's over that shit” it’s going to make it easier to be like, I trust that the other side ain't on no bullshit.What's going through your mind when you're actually bringing the two of them together in the same space?Mark: Oh, I was scared to death. First of all, when I first spoke to Jay, I remember rehearsing it.You had a speech prepared?Mark: Yeah, absolutely! And as soon as I saw [Jay], he got it right away. I said, "Dude, can I finish my shit? I practiced this." But when we finally get to the building, every floor, every time it hit a light, my stomach was... [grimaces]J. Cole: Who did you walk in with? Jay or Nas?Mark: Me and Nas. It was at [Jay]s studio] Baseline. On a Saturday. My stomach was just... because the adrenaline is like, this is really happening now. But it we went up, Jay was like, "What's up?" Nas was like, "What's up?" And then it was just a dope conversation. You saw the respect that they have for each other, because they were quoting lines: “Yo, you said this, that was hard. “ “You said this, that hurt." And then when he got past all of that, Jay just said, "We should do this: we do your album. we do mine." It's like he had the plan already.When we were leaving, I said, "Y’all be on this cool shit. Come here!” [mimes a group hug] Everybody's trying to be all cool. So then me and Nas grabbed a drink after and he was just pumped. These are moments that we need.Cole: You can't Google [Mark] accurately because there's a thousand of those [stories].... Similarly, with the Chris and Usher tour, y'all think these n-ggas just woke up one day, called each other and said, "Hey man, you want to go to the road?" No, bro, the odds of that tour happening ever are real slim… these are grown ass men with their own greatness, their own lives, their own careers, their own ambitions. The time that it takes to come together and do something is probably never going to happen unless you have somebody behind the scenes that both sides trust and got their ear to set it up. So I want to ask you, how the fuck did you do this and was it difficult? Was it easy?Mark Pitts, J. Cole and GQ's Frazier TharpeThere was something in your life that motivated you to finally do this, right Mark?Mark: I was trying to get it done for the longest, we were almost there, then COVID hit. It was always something in the way and it got to a point where it was feeling like it wasn't going to happen. I remember what put the battery in my back was when I found out I had cancer. it was December 12th last year—Cancer free [now], by the way.But I found out and then the next day I was supposed to go see Chris because he was performing in Africa. And I was sitting in the car like, fucking cancer. I'm sitting there, and then “Residuals” comes on Hot 97. It did something to me. I'm going. I've never been to Africa. As soon as I get there, I just had this energy. It was an amazing trip. I went and I spent some time with him and then I left, came back and flew to Miami right from Africa because Usher's last show was there.I remember I found the words to actually make it make sense because I was like, When you see these pictures from back in the days, you see Frank Sinatra, Sammy Davis Jr. and you're always wondering what the fuck is going on in that picture? I'm like, you’re living in that moment. We take it for granted. [We] always wanted to see Michael and Prince. You don't get a chance to actually do shit like this.And it was the right time because Chris had a nice run on his own, Usher had this nice run on his own, so they both felt good enough.Cole, do you remember a moment in your career in the early going while you're still playing the game, trying to change the game, that you really had to look to Mark's counsel to pivot through something?J. Cole: I don't feel like I'm the type of person that's going to even let Mark know that I'm stressing, because I'm figuring it all out in here [points to head]. He might've heard it through the music. Remember that time you wanted to play Jay that little one verse that I did off of that Salaam beat? You heard me say something in there like, "[Jay] needs to hear this." [Mark] was hearing my frustrations of trying to play the label politics through the music. The way I know how I am, I'm not telling Ib, I'm not going to tell Mark, I'm just going to try to deal with it. I don't think it was the healthiest way to approach it, but it's just how I was approaching shit.Mark: I think that definitely is more of the personal stuff that we call, like, “I need your thoughts.”J. Cole: If I get on the phone with him… it ain't no "Yo, you good? All right, cool. Just checking on you." It's going to turn into three hours.Mark and I were talking before this and he said you're like a therapist and I reminded him that Therapist was, if I'm not mistaken, one of your early rap names.J. Cole: Yes. My second rap name. But I ain't going to lie, even me getting married—I was at a point in my life where I was getting there, I was having clarity, but it was the conversation with Mark where when I got off the phone with him, I'm like, I'm getting this ring.Mark: That's what I was talking about.J. Cole: Me taking what I took from that conversation was only because I was at a point in my life where I could be clear enough—To receive it.Cole: To receive it. You know what I mean? That was Forest Hills Drive era. So, the music is going to tell the level of clarity that was there artistically. And of course, the fact that I could even be there was a part of him being my lead blocker, amongst other things.Mark, when you tell the story of finding Cole, you've said it was at a point you were disillusioned with where hip-hop was going. Cole working on The Fall-Off, specifically before you got to Disc 2, you’ve said that you had a little bit of a disillusionment, that maybe you weren't as excited anymore. I'm wondering if you guys had a conversation in that period where Mark, having gone through that before counseled Cole on how one finds their way through that.J. Cole: At that time that you're talking about... It wasn't disillusionment, bro, I was tired. I was done with this album that I had been working on for a long time, and I was kind of out of gas. Now, mind you, when we talk, I'm not being like, “Yo, Mark, I can't write nothing." I'm telling him, "Bro, the album's done, I think I'm done after that." What I do remember him saying is, "N-gga, you ain't done." He's not buying it. The blessing is that whatever happened that year happened, and it's like I hit a whole... I learned that, now I'm on this page, where it's like, I may never be done with this shit, in some capacity, like I really do love this shit, and I want to stay in love with it. But there were times when he was dejected, I'd just be hearing him out. It's like he said, like a therapist, I'm just listening with no judgment.A sounding board.J. Cole: A sounding board, letting him get his shit off, knowing that he going to find his path, just like he know I'm going to find mine. He knew I wasn't done, but he knew I would find that out myself, and I'm letting him do the same. And now, fast-forward years later, it's like, he more inspired probably than he was in his fucking 20s.Mark: One thousand percent 1000%. A good therapist can ask the right questions to the answers you already have. And that's what it is. That's how our dynamic always is.J. Cole: Especially as men, we don't get a lot of places to just go vent. And by the way, he not calling me to vent, I'm just asking the right questions to really get to the bottom of, how is my n-gga feeling? What's really going on? And because he got trust for me, I got trust for him, he is going to ultimately end up telling me the real. Ain't too many places a grown man can go in the world and just da, da, da, da, da... because as a man, first of all, you don't want to tell it, and the world don't necessarily want to hear it, n-gga.You yourself just said that you bottle stuff up more than you should.J. Cole: There you go. I mean—not anymore. It's not bottling, I'd still handle shit... I'll be my own therapist, put it like that. But I also understand that listening is a service, listening is an act of love. Asking the right questions is an act of care. Sometimes we get on the phone, I'm just like, n-gga, how are you feeling? And in my lowest times, he'll hear it from me, my frustrations. In his lowest times, I'll be his sounding board. And that's the ultimate act I feel like of love is being an ear for somebody. Non-judgmentally, not trying to fix their shit, just listening.Going back to 2024, was Mark specifically a counsel that you looked to?J. Cole: I should have used him a little more, I ain't going to lie [laughs] He hit me when that happened like, "Yo, you good?" I'm talking about pre-apology, when is shit popping off, and the world is like, what you going to do? He hit me on some shit like, "What time is it?” But what I'm not going to tell him is...That you're not feeling it.J. Cole: I'm not going to tell him that, at that time.Why didn't you want to tell him that?J. Cole: I'm not going to tell nobody that, that's just how I operate. What I'm telling him at the time is I got it. I'm not sure what our conversation was at that time. But I know that I'm not giving him the real, which is like, damn, I got this n-gga on the album, it puts me in a weird position, I got to respond without responding, but still try to save face. I was holding a lot. On top of that, I thought I was done with the album, I'm retired, uninspired in my mind. I probably would've done a little better getting it all off. I probably told you some of that, but I ain't probably really give the real weight of what I was going through.Mark: I remember just hearing the joint on a Thursday, and I was just like... I wanted it to be more.You could feel that his heart wasn't in it.Mark: Yes. It was [Dreamvillefest weekend]. I said, I'm not going to call. I'm going to wait until he's done. But then I find out he apologized. I said, I'm proud of you. But right now, as a fan, what the fuck are you doing? But I get it… Listen, in a month you're going to go through all the bullshit, but you're going to get past that, and everybody's going to appreciate that. It's actually the right thing to do. It's harder to do.Well, it also reminds me of something that I read, that one of your early thoughts when you first came to Cole's music was, this kid knows who he is. And I feel like an event like that is a reflection of that.J. Cole: I appreciate it. And I feel like I did know who I was back then, but even when we met, the difference was I didn't know—and that’s the reason why you found all of these little hiccups along the way, like the Versace sweater and shit or the leather jacket, it's because I knew who I was, but I didn't know how to translate that to the public lens.Like, how to navigate that perception?J. Cole: Yeah, exactly. I remember back then, I was hearing third-hand industry conversations, when they figuring out how to sell [me] were like, "Oh, he don't look like a star," because every time they see me, I'm just dressing like a regular n-gga. But everything happens how it's supposed to, of course, I had to go through everything. I knew who I was, but I wasn't brave enough yet or confident enough yet to just be that in front of a camera.It feels like this tour is like the last leg of a process of really getting back into it, coming back, reclaiming your spot… how affirming has it been to be on the road and seeing that love poured back to you?J. Cole: It's fire. Just like, look what we built. That's what I be thinking on the stage every night. This started from me going to this n-gga office, I couldn't sell a ticket that day. So, I'm on stage, not on some, "Yeah, I'm reclaiming my spot!" I'm thinking about Ib, I'm thinking about all these nights in the studio, I'm thinking about—The polo.J. Cole: The Mark Pitts polo. I'm thinking about all the steps. I’'m definitely not thinking like, oh, they thought I was gone, now look at me... I'm just grateful and blown away.Yo Mark, I got a random question for you: Can you take us through Confessions? I know it had to be a lot of combined greatness to make that album happen. One, the greatness of Usher and his performance. The greatness of these songwriters and these producers and the greatness of the people behind the scenes, the A&Rs, the executives that helped put this shit together. But I done seen a lot of people say that Confessions is their story. I done seen so many interviews where Jermaine [Dupri] has said it, Bryan-Michael Cox. I also have heard Mark be like, "Yo n-ggas is basing this on me" so as a fan, I want to know…Who was hand-in-hand in the Beverly Center?Mark: JD wrote that. But at that time, Usher needed some—J. Cole: Some edge.Mark: We always used to always talk to him about the relationships he was in. And I was like, “This type of shit you need to be talking about [in your music]. Because you just come across as if you're studying.” I came up with Real Talk. It’s just a combination of being in studio and telling stories, it's a combination of our lives. But it's easy to say we planned out what we're going to do. But the song brought it all together. We all had a little bit of fuckery in our lives. It's a little bit of all of us.Cole, I talked to Jay-Z earlier this year and he was talking about artist development during the early days of Roc Nation, saying that he felt like he wanted to give you the space to find yourself. Do you feel like you had that at that time?J. Cole: One hundred percent. One thousand percent. Thank God. People can be in their own heads. When I was there, I would look at those things and place a little more blame. Like, damn, they made me. You know what I mean? Now that I'm older and I've realized how the world works, it's like, no, he helped you. One, he absolutely gave me all the space to grow as an artist, and the pressure that he did put on me in terms of a single, I needed it n-gga, he made a diamond. I would not have been able to become who I am today and where I ended up getting to had he notYou got to be battle tested in this shit. Jay had to have his own battle test. He had to drop Reasonable Doubt, know how ill it was, but people were sleeping on it. Go make “Sunshine.” Ah, fuck, I fucked up a classic. He had to go through his own personal thing. He was under his own pressure. It might not have came from a label head. But had he not given me that pressure, who knows? Maybe I would've just dropped it. What if Friday Night Lights had a few much better songs on it? It's still a classic, but what if I put everything I had in the arsenal on it and it was a classic, but it sold 20,000, and I never recovered? Or, it sold a lot and because I never been through no real battles, I didn't know how to respond after that. So trust me, bro, I'm grateful. Jay gave me tons of space and whatever pressure he put on me was for the better.When you look ahead, what's coming next?J Cole: I would love to produce a lot more. But for now just locked in on this tour, trying to get back to the family more consistently.Mark: The tour life is first, every day I'm on tour. But I want to build up my new company Cofvnders because I feel like the whole R&B tour, it's bigger than [Usher and Chris]. I feel like R&B music doesn't get enough [credit]. I love what it's doing for Mario and Eric Bellinger and Tank. Watching them go on stage and they going crazy for around 60,000 people. And I want to keep pushing that along, building up the new [wave] of R&B, building up some young acts because I think that's R&B gets us up.Cole, are we still throwing the concept of retirement around though?J. Cole: No, I'm not using that word at all. No, no, no, no. I was saying that I made The Fall-Off with intentions that it’s going to be my last shit. Luckily, by the time I got to actually finishing the album, because of the circumstances, it's like, oh, nah, I'll never say I'm going to retire. I don't know whenever the next thing is going to happen, but, I'm definitely not going to say no.