Guardians running out of time after costly series loss to White Sox – Cleveland Baseball Talk Podcast

CLEVELAND, Ohio — Monday’s edition of the Cleveland Baseball Talk Podcast examines a Guardians team running out of time to find its footing after a costly series loss to the first-place White Sox. Cleveland won Friday’s opener but dropped the final two games in Chicago, falling to 58-61, four games out of first place and into a crowded race with Detroit and Minnesota. Joe Noga and Paul Hoynes discuss the Guardians’ inability to put together complete games, with the offense, bullpen and defense taking turns letting them down during a stretch in which they have lost 13 of 17. Stephen Vogt’s message after a team meeting Sunday — that the Guardians are “good enough to win as we are” — raises a larger question about what this team’s identity actually is, especially with José Ramírez still limited by his surgically repaired hand and Cleveland struggling to score consistently.The conversation also looks at Cleveland’s fading AL Central hopes and why the wild-card standings may be more important over the final six weeks, although a September home series against Chicago still gives the Guardians an opportunity to change the division race. Before then, Cleveland needs to turn things around beginning with a crucial series in Detroit against a Tigers team that has climbed into second place despite dealing away top pitchers at the deadline. Finally, Noga and Hoynes discuss the impressive arrival of rookie Angel Genao, who collected four hits in his major league debut and followed with his first home run against Chicago. Genao’s quick start has raised questions about Cleveland’s future infield alignment involving Brayan Rocchio and Travis Bazzana, but Hoynes cautions against getting carried away with a small sample, noting how often prospects have started quickly before struggling once the league adjusts.Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s an AI-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings.Podcast TranscriptJoe Noga: Foreign. Welcome back to the Cleveland Baseball Talk Podcast. I’m Joe Noga, joined by Paul Hoynes. Hoynsie, the Guardians had a chance to make up ground in Chicago over the weekend and instead they come up short, lose a pivotal series at right field against the first place White Sox. The losing the final two games. After taking the opener on Friday, the standings in the AL Central suddenly a lot tighter and sort of in the wrong direction. The Guardians staring up at the White Sox from fourth place right now, entering the, the, the series opener on Tuesday in Detroit at 58 and 61. They’re four games behind the White Sox tied with Minnesota and, and Detroit has jumped into second place. So on today’s show we got to talk about, you know, what the, what we learned from the series in Chicago, what the Guardian’ really is and if, if Angel Genao’s arrival really has sort of changed Cleveland’s outlook on the future and when what could be expected of him? Let’s, let’s start with just your first impressions, your takeaways from the White Sox series.Paul Hoynes: Yeah, just really kind of a disappointing series, Joe, you know, especially after they started in such good fashion with an 8 to 2 win on Friday night. Martinez hits a home run, you know, Quan bounces one off the foul pole. It looked like they, they had a head of steam going into, into, you know, sat into the, the last two games of the series, but you know, they, they, you know, and, and in each game, Joe, they had two and a two to nothing lead in each of the games. They, and they were only able to turn that lead into a win one time Saturday night. They’re, they’re up two to nothing and then they give up five runs in, in the sixth inning. Just, you know, just really. Colin Holderman had really an atypical appearance by him, you know, hit a couple batters, didn’t record an out. The bullpen just, you know, kind of, the bullpen just didn’t pitch well to, you know, in this whole series to me, you know, and yesterday Sunday, you know, just that probably game shouldn’t have started when it did and you know, it kind of hurt. You know, it really took. Took. The Guardians put them really at a disadvantage when the game got postponed after the first inning. They couldn’t bring Joey Cantillo back. They didn’t have a long reliever to replace Cantillo because their long reliever Slay Cecconi was on, was put on the IL on Friday. But you know, the White Sox did have a long reliever in In Hagan Smith, and he pitched three. Three, you know, solid innings in his big league debut. And that was pretty much the difference in the game.Joe Noga: Yeah, and that sort of manipulation there, that gamesmanship, I don’t know, whatever you want to call it in terms of the deciding when to start the game, knowing that the, the chance was there for the weather to, to cause the delay, you know, it’s, it. There’s not a lot you can do about it, I guess, if you’re Cleveland, but you can, you could put that in the memory banks and, and remember that the next time Chicago’s in town and, or. Or they’re making up the, the schedule and in terms of getaway games and things like that in the future. And I don’t think the, the Guardians will forget about that anytime soon. You know, was this, was this sort of a measuring stick, though? If you looked at the series as a whole, Guardians had Gavin Williams cruising on Saturday and, you know, they had a lead and, and Williams sort of faltered there. What, in the sixth inning, couldn’t get through the inning and the bullpen couldn’t pick him up. And, and, and really, like you said, they jumped out to another early lead on Sunday. Is this sort of it. Did the better team win those, those final two games we saw? The White Sox bullpen was better. They hit the ball in, in clutch situations. Cleveland’s margin for error, in spite. In spite of the changes that they made at the trade deadline to improve their lineup, really, they still appear to have these razor thin margins for error.Paul Hoynes: I think, I think this is a team that really hasn’t solidified, you know, since the deadline, you know, when they brought in, what, two new hitters, two new pitchers, and it, it seems, you know, they sent down a couple guys, Manzardo and, and David Fry. You know, I, I think it’s. It’s still a team trying to find itself and, and you know, it’s. And, you know, and they’re trying to do it on the run, Joe, and time is running out and, you know, they seem to, they. They’re playing in spurts. They, they can’t put a whole game together. You know, talking to Stephen Kwan after the game Sunday, he said, you know, when we pitch well, we don’t hit. When we hit well, we don’t pitch. And when we pitch and hit well, we don’t play good defense, you know, and that’s the, you know, that’s the lit. That’s the, the litany of every losing team we’ve ever seen in Cleveland. You Know, and, and this is what. This is like. They’re playing. They’re playing like this. We’ve seen this, I think, all season. We saw it, you know, when the Twins came to town, you know, a few weeks back. They win the first two games of that series, then they lose the next two. They did the same thing when Chicago against the White Sox. They, you know, they split the series after, you know, taking an early lead in the series. It’s, you know, it’s. They can’t, they can’t slam the door. And, you know, they’ve got the best closer in baseball in Cade Smith, but he doesn’t pitch anymore. He hasn’t pitched, you know, hardly at all in the last, what, 17, 18 games because, you know, they’ve lost. They’ve lost most of those games. It’s, you know, they’re, they’re just in a funk right now, and I don’t know if they’re coming out of it.Joe Noga: Yeah, lost 13 of their last 17, something like that. And Smith was pitching in, in the sixth or seventh inning yesterday just because, like you said, the, the situation didn’t call for a save. And he needed the work. He needed to.Paul Hoynes: Yeah, he just needed the work.Joe Noga: And you also risk not having him sharp enough. Cade Smith, if, if you do have a save situation, if he hasn’t pitched in four or five days and you’re bringing him out there, you don’t want to see him, you know, having any get away from him because he’s not sharp and walking guys early because he just hasn’t been used. So, yeah, right now the standings kind of matter. You know, we’re getting to the point where you’ve got to keep track of where teams are and what kind of runs they’re on. Four games back, with about six weeks left in the season, it’s not an impossible task. And certainly we’ve seen this club come back from deficits that are greater than this. But right now, four games seems like they’re a mile away from first place in the AL Central. And after seeing the way that Chicago, you know, just sort of played and the confidence that this, that that group is playing with and their ability to hit the ball all over the ballpark, I think, you know, it’s got to be weighing on the guardians and their young hitters minds. And Stephen Vogt alluded to that. With these guys trying to do too much.Paul Hoynes: They had a team meeting after Sunday’s game. He talked about, you know, vote told us that we, we. That he feels like his players are are trying too hard. They’re trying to be perfect. He says they, they’ve kind of lost sight of their identity. He said we’re good enough to win as we are. We don’t have to be. Try to be somebody we aren’t. And, and it, it sounded good, Joe, but you know, in the back of my mind I’m sitting thinking, well, who are the guardians? You know, who, who are these guys right now? You know, they certainly aren’t, they don’t seem like the, the, the team from last year. I guess the only, the only similarity is they don’t score and that team didn’t score. But they also pitched great. They had a great bullpen and they played stellar defense and they were able to win a lot of close games. Now those close games are, are going in the opposite way because. Looks fried to me, Joe. I mean every, every guy that they bring in there, you know, pitch, you know, he has, he’s good. You know, he shows flashes of what we’ve seen in the past, but then in a critical situation, they, he gives up a run, he gives up a homer. It’s, it’s. They don’t, they, they make, they’re making the wrong pitch at the wrong time and it’s, it’s really cost them. And, and when they get down, they don’t come back. And, and I, I think especially you know, with, with Jose Ramirez, you know, only a shell of himself, you know, they don’t have that guy. You know, they don’t have that spark. They don’t, they don’t have the guy that’s going to, you know, bring them back by hitting a two run homer in the seventh inning. They, they don’t, you know, we saw that last, last yesterday. You know, Ramirez comes up in the ninth inning, hits a sacrifice fly. He drove the ball to a center field. But maybe if he’s healthy, maybe if that hand isn’t hurting him, he, he, that that ball’s off the fence or, or it’ and you know, I think that’s a critical difference in his club.Joe Noga: Yeah. How much of what Boat said is just manager speak and you know, trying to make sure that, you know, he keeps the morale high. And how much of it is, you know, does he, he, he really believes that, that this team as constructed and, and as they’re playing, I mean it’s not just, you know, putting the guys in the right spots. It’s they, they have to perform. Early in the season, Stephen Kwan wasn’t hitting.400 and now he is. And it’s almost like it’s too late for what Quan’s done. He talked about Ramirez just being a shell of himself. It’s not, you know, it’s not the quality of the at bats. It’s the. It’s the physical ability to drive the ball right now. I mean, every time he, you know, has a check swing when he’s batting right handed, he’s in tremendous pain. Just. He said that and, and Votes said that they’re going to have to manage that throughout the rest of the season. This is, this is how the team might have to prepare for life beyond Jose Ramirez at some point. But, you know, I don’t think we’re ever going to fully see him back to Jose Ramirez that we’re used to until spring training of, you know, maybe the 2027 season.Paul Hoynes: Yeah, that’s a great point, Joe. I think, you know, we have a similar case with Francisco Lindor. You know, he had the hamate bone surgery, and you look at his numbers with the Mets this year, they’re. They’re down, way down as well. So, you know that that’s a significant injury. He probably, you know, I, I don’t. He probably came back too soon. What. He had five. He took five weeks off and, you know, he. He has. I don’t think he’s hit a home run since June 6th. Maybe. Maybe you’re. I think that’s. That’s the date, but it’s been a long. And he doesn’t have an extra base hit since then as well. So, you know, this is a guy that drives the Guardians. He’s. He’s the focal point of that offense, and without him, they’re an ordinary team because, you know, as good as Quan has been, he. He sets the table. He’s hitting singles. He’s not hitting doubles or triples or. And are, you know, hitting home runs. He sets the table for Ramirez.Joe Noga: Yeah. And they tried to address this at the trade deadline by bringing in Nathaniel Low and Joe Odell. And, you know, both of those guys have had moments, have shown, you know, flashes, but it’s not there consistently top to bottom yet. It, you know, they haven’t reinvented the team. They’ve just sort of added pieces on the margins and on the, on the periphery that that could help. And, you know, if this were a team that we’re sort of clicking on all cylinders like it was in, let’s say, September of last year, I think adding guys like Adele and. And Low would have been tremendous, but they’re just not there right now. Is this still a team that’s going to rely on its pitching? Is that going to be enough down the stretch or are you going to risk burning some of these guys out too? You’re talking about, you know, Parker Messick and Gavin Williams. They’re getting to the points right now in the season where they’ve never pitched this many innings before.Paul Hoynes: Yeah, you know, you’ve got to give those two credit. Messick was great Friday night. You know, for a rookie to step up in a big time game like that and give them seven innings at two runs with eight, eight punch outs, just, you know, quality start by him. And I think Williams, five and two thirds. He had seven strikeouts, gives up two runs. They take him out in the what, in the six after 102 pitches. But I, I don’t know, Joe. You know, it’s easy to second guess, but if I, if I vote and I’m trying to win a game here against the Tiger, against the right, the White Sox, I gotta go with him. I gotta stay with my horse there. But, you know, he didn’t, he turned it over to Holderman. And you know, Holderman has been super this whole year, but he was not on, on Saturday night and that cost him the game.Joe Noga: Holderman had been dealing with some, some lingering illness, feeling under the weather a little bit the previous week. I don’t know if that was still affecting him or not, but whatever it was, he was not sharp. He was. And the game got away from him right there. All of that notwithstanding, they’re still one of the lowest scoring teams in the American League. So if they’re, you know, good enough as, as both says, does that mean they’re good enough to win and reach the playoffs? Is it good enough to win the division? Is it good enough to, to beat teams that are standing on top of their divisions right now? The elite teams? We haven’t seen that in quite a while. This team hasn’t really. It. Do you think back over the last two or three weeks, is there a, a win over a, an elite, you know, top team that, that really stands out? I don’t think they have one.Paul Hoynes: Yeah, that’s a good point. You know, they just, you know, they’ve just been, you know, it like they’ve lost, what, 13 of their last 17 games. So I guess any win they get is, is a big win. But, you know, they have not played well. They have not played well against the good teams, they’ve not played well against the average teams. And you know, right now even, you know, even if you fall back to the wild card, Joe. They’re, you know, they’re, they’re, they’re, they’re a game and a half out of behind Texas for the fourth spot. And, you know, the Twins and the Tigers are in front of them, so they have to start winning ball games, and they have to start winning them fast. There’s only, what, 43 or so games left if they’re going to make the postseason. I think, Joe, right now the focus has probably shifted. Let’s just get in one way or the other, you know. Yeah, I don’t think they, you know, if they, if they win the division, fine. But the main goal right now is to, is to reach the postseason come hell or high water.Joe Noga: Yeah, this is a, this is a wild card chase now. It’s not a division chase, I don’t think, at least in my mind. Hey, just go ahead and click over on that tab when you’re looking at the standings. Go from the division setup on the tab to the wild card standings on the tab just to see where they rank, because that’s, that’s the one we’re going to be tracking, I think, for the rest of the way out. But the schedule actually gives them another shot. Got another shot at the White Sox mid September at home. You, you would think that that’s a series that they could probably take advantage of, and now it’s a series that they’re definitely going to have to sweep.Paul Hoynes: Yeah, they’ve got to sweep that if, if they have any intention of winning the Central. Because, you know, right now the White Sox hold the tiebreaker. You know, they have a, all they have to do is win one of those remaining three games. They get the tiebreaker in case, you know, the two teams end up in a tie for the top spot in the division. So it’s critical. And I think, you know, Joe, one of the big differences that I saw over the weekend between the two teams is, you know, Murakami was back and he is, he really lifts that off that Chicago offense. That’s the first time they’ve really seen him. I think that they, you know, he was on the il. When. Earlier in the season when they played, but he’s a big time hitter and they could not get him out. He, he. And he hit and his hits came at, at critical times as well.Joe Noga: Yeah. And that’s, you know, stick that in the back of your mind when they face them in, in mid September. You know, maybe this is a guy that you pitch around in that series and you make sure that he doesn’t hurt you in that way just because you want to give yourself every opportunity to win that you can. Like we said, they’ve got about a month right now, a month’s worth of games between now and seeing the White Sox again. They need to not just keep their head above water, they need to actually be a winning team in that one month stretch, you know, before Chicago shows up to have that series. Meaning.Paul Hoynes: Yeah. And you know, this series coming up right now against the Tigers is a critical one too, Joe. I mean, the Tigers are doing it again. You know what? A couple years ago, didn’t they trade everybody and they still made the postseason and now they’re sneaking up again after. They’re dumping Skubal and Mize.Joe Noga: Yeah, they dump their two top pitchers and, and they’ve got just an army’s worth of talent on the injured list. So they’re doing this with, you know, guys like Dylan Dingler and Kevin McGonagall. The Tigers are staying hot and they’ve climbed into second place. But you know, the Guardians have pretty much had their way with them through six meetings earlier in the season. They’re. They’re six and oh, against the Tigers. And you remember the last time Cleveland went into Comerica park, it sparked one of the hottest stretches of winning for this, the season so far for them.Paul Hoynes: Yeah. And they swept them, Right? Obviously they swept them. Yeah. So, you know, maybe, you know, there’s some magic at Comerica park that the Guardians, you know, can, can feed off of because they need a booster shot or something. Joe, this is, this is a team kind of dragging its tail right now and I think they’re wondering about themselves and wondering, you know, just, you know, how this, how this, the remaining games in this season are going to unfold. I mean, every, they all kind of look back at, at last year, that historic rally, you know, where they came back from 15 and a half games back and finally and won the division on the final game of the season. Well, this, this team isn’t that team. They’re going to have to create their own momentum. You know, they can only feed off that for so long and right now, you know, they’ve got to, they’ve got to find something within themselves that, that kind of drives them forward.Joe Noga: Yeah, it’s when, you know, maybe they have found something in that, in, in the rookie Angel Genao, he’s come up and, and Hoynsie, what were your first impressions after they promoted him? He got four hits in his first game with the, with the club and now just looks like he’s. He’s maybe starting to settle in, and the. The momentum really hasn’t gone away.Paul Hoynes: Oh, I mean, he’s. He’s a solid player, Joe. We haven’t seen him get a lot of chances defensively. You know, he’s bounced between third base and second base, you know, and he finally. He hit his first big league home run Saturday night, had a single in the ninth inning when, you know, they threatened to come back against the White Sox. You know, he’s kind of, you know, you know, just. He’s really. He’s hit well. But, you know, Joe, I. I don’t want to. I think, you know, there’s a tendency when the Guardians bring up a young player and he has a hot start, and obviously, you know, Hanoi had a historic start with four hits in his first big league game. But I think he. The hype machine starts, and you start thinking, this is the next Jose Ramirez, this is the next Francisco Lindor. And we’ve seen that kind of, you know, kind of hit the wall with a lot of players that they brought up with with a hot start, and then they end up back at Columbus. So I just want to give this kid a little chance to see how. How he kind of just, you know, kind of, you know, melds into the big league life. But so far, so good, Joe. He’s. He’s got a good attitude. I think he’s. He’s. He’s a grounded kid, and really like the way he swings the bat and. And nothing seems to faze him. You know, he just. He has a. You know, he’s. He’s grounded and the game doesn’t speed up on him, and I think he. He just. He looks comfortable at the plate to me.Joe Noga: Where do you think his. His future is in terms of where they can put him on the field? We’ve seen, with his arrival, sort of Brian Rocchio maybe even take a step backwards in terms of his productivity. Whereas earlier in the season when he didn’t have to worry about Gabriel Arias and worry about job security in that, we saw Brian Rocchio sort of flourish. Now, Angel Genao there, Rocco’s kind of stopped hitting, and is it a matter of him thinking about, you know, job security again with the young guy coming up behind him? And, you know, where does Genao fit into that puzzle? It’s kind of convenient now that. That Jose Ramirez is, you know, maybe struggling a little bit with his. With his hand and needing some extra time off. We’ve seen some opportunities for him to play Third base. But does he project maybe at shortstop or at second base?Paul Hoynes: Yeah, you know, I think he, I think he does. He’s a natural shortstop. You know, he can play second and third. I don’t think those are his best positions, but, you know, we haven’t seen him at short yet. But you’re right, Rocchio has hit the wall here. You know, he carried them for what, first two and a half, three months of the season, but he hasn’t, you know, he’s in a long slump right now. I don’t know if, you know, Joe, I hadn’t even thought about, you know, the presence of Hanoi and maybe causing Rokio to look over his shoulder. You know, I think he’s been around long enough not to, not, not to do that, but who knows? I mean, you know, I’m not inside his head, but, you know, this kid is going to play somewhere, Joe, and if he keeps performing like this, you know, what about Travis Bazana? He hasn’t played a lot of second base. I mean, is that, is that the next move? Is he an outfield fielder next year? I don’t know. But you know, Genao is certainly been had an impressive start, but, you know, I’m not. Let’s, let’s just wait on him a little bit.Joe Noga: Yeah, I agree in terms of pumping the brakes. And you know, as soon as he gets four hits in his first game, everybody’s immediate reaction is, well, you have to move Travis Bazan to the outfield. That’s it was, it was natural to turn on the radio and listen to that. And, you know, I don’t know, I, like you said, got to give the kid an opportunity, but I think it’s going to take a little more time to really, you know, find where he’s going to fit in.Paul Hoynes: And Joe, there’s nothing wrong with having too many good players. And, you know, those three guys are solid guys. You know, I think, you know, Rocco is going to come back. He’s too good of a player not to start hitting again.MORE BY CLEVELAND BASEBALL TALK PODCASTJoe Noga: And I’ll tell you what, you know, somebody like, like me who was on here a couple weeks ago saying ahead of the trade deadline that, you know, maybe the Guardian should trade on hell now and, and add him in for, you know, and then he comes up and does this. There’s a reason why I’m not the president or general manager of the, the Guardians. And you and me both, you’re seeing it play out.Paul Hoynes: We were saying the same thing about Juan Bredo, right? To a certain degree, when he came up and look what happened to Juan. He, you know, he kind of hit the wall here after a real good start. And, you know, it has. Was recently traded to the Reds. So, you know, you. It takes time. It takes this. This is not like an overnight send. There’s very few overnight sensations in the big league.Joe Noga: Yeah. The difference between the Guardians and every other team in the league is, you know, every other team’s got a veteran guy holding that spot down. In terms of, you bring a guy like Genao up and, you know, he’s, he’s trying to, you know, fight for playing time there. You’ve at least got a veteran to fill in and keep yourself above water while that kid learns how to play the position. So there’s a. There’s the big difference in terms of those spots. All right, Hoins, that’s going to wrap up today’s edition of the Cleveland Baseball Talk podcast. We’ll check in again tomorrow and preview the the big series against the Tigers that starts Tuesday at Comerica Park. We’ll talk to you. It.This article was produced with assistance from AI tools and reviewed by Cleveland.com staff.